When Is Enough Enough

I think that when we want to move on it has to be a mind set that we are going to get past it! we have to put in our mind that we will get over this! If your husband has done everything that you have asked him to do to show that he wants to be with you, then what else can you ask for?

Here's a few thoughts from someone who was a cheating husband (me!). Statistics do not favor accepting what happened was a regrettable one-time episode, and that you and your husband can agree to 'move on', forget the past, and live happily ever after. whatever issues contributed to unhealthy aspects of the marriage at the time of the affair, unless having somehow miraculously healed, remain at play. Sounds like both of you should investigate codependents anonymous, and your husband may benefit from sex and love addicts anonymous. His assurances that he has changed may, or may not, be true, as he probably may actually believe his own words, and can be quite convincing. As for my story, I sought professional help, and through a close friend, awakened to my codependent patterns, which led to regular CODA support group meetings, which ultimately awakened me to my sexual addiction. Now I attend both CODA and SLAA, and after 3 years, I will NEVER succumb to my patterns again. At least insist your husband read Patrick Carnes 'Out of the Shadows'. Be well.

The books all say to expect 2 to 5 years to reach a point of healing. Problem is men are ready to be done with it after 2 to 5 weeks. And women beat themselves up because they are not already over it. My cousin's husband left her 5 years after his affair because he couldn't take anymore. They even had their 2nd child during that time. She tells me to divorce and not waste more of my life on a man who won't change. Her warnings frighten me.

I know what you mean, though. I cannot understand how someone who now says he loves me could've done such repulsive things. And it was repulsive. He also says he did it because he thought he could never be good enough. You're not good enough, so you go do something vile and destroy your life? And that makes you better? No, you are sending the message, loud and clear, that your wife was not good enough. I think he did it because he had no boundaries, fell to temptation, and thought he could get away with anything. My counselor says it was depravity. I was not to blame for his actions, or my failure to uncover it earlier. (I like my counselor!)

I am three months past d-day, and I feel a need to talk about the nightmare with my husband every single day. When he gets irritated (and he does all the time), I tell him he spent 9 months living his lies, so it will take much longer than that to get the truth out.

Wow. Many insightful and very relevant thoughts, abyss. You have clearly cut to the chaste. It's impossible for anyone to know exactly what's going on in the relationship, much less someone like me. That said, here's one possible scenario (out of many, of course); your husband has a private 'self' that he has never shared with you (or anyone). he learned as an adolescent that he is unworthy of another's love, and the only source of nurturing and comfort is self-satisfaction. Yes, that means a preoccupation with sexual fantasies; masturbation, voyeurism, porn, and then an affair. He is a sex addict. He will always be a sex addict; his best future is to awaken to his addiction, admit he is powerless, and begin recovery work. You may possibly be a co-addict, which does not mean you have an addiction to sex, but that you have codependency patterns that fit hand-in-glove with his sex addiction. Denial, rationalization, grandiose thoughts that you can change him; all your efforts unfortunately serve to worsen his sex addiction as they reinforce his life-long belief of blaming himself, and that is unworthy of anyone's love. Which leads to his desire to find nurturing and comfort, which leads back to his fantasies of sex (addiction). Your effort to help him provides your own sense of nurturing and self-comfort, as it permits you to avoid your own feelings of loneliness and vulnerability. He sees you as an object, not a person, as he learned early that it is less painful to be rejected by an object and not a person.
All the above is just one scenario out of many, and may have nothing to do with your relationship, in whole or part. It just happens to be my personal story, as I was the husband that had an affair.
Be well.

@ Jerry: Actually, you have hit the nail on the head. I found on recovered e-mails that my husband had sent obscene pictures of himself and others he got online to the other woman AND her best friend. The best friend part really shocked me. After the affair, about once a week, I would ask him, "Do you have a porn problem?" As far as I knew, he had never even looked at the stuff, but the pictures he sent were haunting me, as I knew they had to come from porn sites. I know adultery is vile and indecent, but the pictures just seemed to be proof that he had a pre-existing problem. It did not sit right with me. He kept saying the women were sending him that kind of stuff, and he just got caught up in it, though I found no evidence that it was two-way. What kind of woman thinks she has found the man of her dreams when he's sending her stuff like that?

The second time I asked the porn question, he told me that his father (an alcoholic/drug-abuser/people-abuser/cheater) had a stash of porn magazines in the house's only bathroom and that his mom and dad would watch porn movies together in the living room of their tiny house. I was shocked! I asked him AGAIN if he had viewed any porn since he married me, and he said no. I talked to our counselor about my suspicions. Finally, about six weeks post-affair, he broke down and admitted to me that he had been battling a porn addiction since he was 9 years old. This news has hurt me even more than the infidelity alone. That is a big secret to keep.

I do worry that there may be no hope, although he is doing and saying the right things now, and has an accountability partner he talks to often. The whole thing is a knock to my self-esteem, although he keeps telling me none of it had anything to do with me. Our counselor says the same thing, though it is easier to hear than believe. She is really an astute woman. When my husband confessed his other sexual sins to her, she told us to question our two sons. I felt uncomfortable with that, and I knew I had raised my boys from a very young age to be squeaky clean. We talked to them anyway. Our oldest denied any issues, but the 19-year-old confessed to his own porn battles that he struggled with throughout adolescence. I really did live a life of denial. I have seen Dr. Phil and Dr. Drew episodes dealing with sexual addictions, and looked in disgust at those men, having no clue that two of them were living in my house. I am thankful, though, that I had at least watched those shows.

Since this is your personal story, do you have any insight on fixing things? I am beginning to fear there are no decent men left on Earth. That is the main reason I let him come back. I thought it would be better to get the man I love fixed than start over with another screwed-up liar. I can assure you that not all women are sexual deviants, but now i have my doubts about men. Now I occasionally find myself struck by a man I might run into, and suddenly think, I bet he is a decent man and a good husband. I never compared men like that before. I always thought my father was exemplary, but my husband now claims he saw him looking at a woman's breasts at a BBQ. Fairly innocent sounding...just knocks my idea that my dad only had eyes for mom, which is the message I got growing up and since. I think, though, that my husband is trying to make sure I think ALL men have these issues, and is trying to bring my dad down to his level. He keeps saying 90% of men watch porn. If he thought it was so normal, why did he hide it from me for 25 years?!!!

The objectifying is certainly something I worry about. My husband was physically and verbally abusive to me the first couple of years we were married. After he tried to choke me one day, I told my mother everything. I had absolutely been in denial. I had excused my husband's behavior because I knew he had been abused and neglected as a child. After that last time, I told him if he ever touched me like that again, I would be calling the police and we would be divorced. We have now been married 25 years, and he has never physically abused me since that day.

~ Confused, Discouraged, Desperately in Need of Help

Your words and thoughts are perceptive and focused on the core issues. I suspect I could learn more from you than you from me. I am but a simple man, untrained in these matters, having only a fundamental understanding of my own circumstances, so any thoughts I offer are for your consideration only. The following is drawn directly from my experience.
If your husband does not recognize and admit to his patterns and how they do not support his own emotional health, then he will remain an active sex addict. Forever. the next question is for you; are you prepared to live the rest of your life with exactly what you have now? If yes, then get used to it. If not, then dissolve the relationship and move on.
However, if your husband genuinely recognizes and admits to his patterns and how they do not support his own emotional health, and i assume you do as well (as I said in my earlier post, i suggest you have codependent or co-addiction patterns that reinforce and fuel his addiction), then there is a starting point to commit to reconstructing a relationship unlike what you've had.
your anger may be due to being stuck in the Kubla-Ross cycle; as you are grieving the death of the relationship at some level, yet he's still there in your life. There has been no metaphorical funeral nor burial permitting closure on the grieving.
whereas an innocent, respectful curiosity of feminine sexuality is healthy; porn, however, is never healthy. it is sex addiction, that may include voyeurism and contact with prostitutes, at best. his assurances of innocence may be persuasive, as he truly believes his own words.
Check into Patrick Carnes landmark book "Out of the Shadows".

@ Jerry: Oh, I am so glad you mentioned that book!! Our counselor recommended it to my husband a few weeks ago, and we totally forgot about it. Just popped over to iStore and bought it.

I will have to do some research and see what codependency looks like. This experience has taught me that I have a tendency to self-blame and to live in denial. As each new revelation came out, I found myself searching high and low for excuses and empathy.

P.S. You sound knowledgeable enough to me. Please don't try to learn anything from me. If you read my rambling posts, you will notice that I am confused, depressed, and really screwed up. I am just using this forum to vent and talk about my personal nightmare that I can't seems to awake from.

Wow! Reading these posts have made me consider things I have not in the past. I don't think any of us know how long is long enough. I think that depends on the individual. I will get over it when I get over it.

Chiming in late, but it's never too long. My wife had an affair 7 years ago now. Four years later, when she got a new job in the same field as where the last affair occurred, my heart sank. But I bit my tongue and congratulated her. Then I found out about another affair at new workplace 5 months ago.

So, if someone who betrayed you is telling you to "let it go," I say it's time to let them go. We did counseling, we got over it and it happened again...exactly because we let it go. I'm not saying remind your spouse every day, but he's got to understand that no matter how far out, certain things will still remind you. I can still tell you what day her 1st affair started, what day I found out, etc. Certain "special" days are ruined (found out about 1st right before Valentine's Day, too late to cancel flowers; 2nd day before her birthday).

So long story short (too late, I know) too bad for him if he can't live with the repercussions of his actions and wants to "move on." Hell, I just found out (with the 2nd affair) about lies and misdirections that were still hidden from the 1st, 7 years ago! I think he's either hiding the whole story from you or headed toward a new one (just my opinion, but when I confronted wife about 2nd, without any proof, I was right just because my gut & I saw her heading down the same road...just didn't know she took the express this time).